1、1印尼总统苏西洛访谈录阮次山先生,是华人世界最有影响力的国际时事评论家专栏作家,他曾为海外星云杂志撰写过“阮次山环球十日谈”专栏阮次山先生是美国圣约翰大学东亚研究硕士,曾任美国国际日报总编辑美国洛杉矶中报总编辑台湾英文报Taiwan News副社长兼总编辑,其专栏文章以不同形式在世界多个国家和地区的报刊刊出,如新加坡联合早报马来西亚星洲日报香港经济日报纽约中外论坛等等阮次山先生现为凤凰卫视资讯台总编辑首席评论员 本文为苏西洛接受阮次山专访时的部分谈话内容 阮次山(以下简称阮):总统先生,谢谢您接受访问您当选总统半年来,领导着由 350个民族组成的近 2.4亿人民,面临困难的经济形势反恐及其他问
2、题,您觉得您的国家目前的情况怎么样? 苏西洛(以下简称苏):我深知我们面临重大挑战,当然要尽一切的努力本届政府将全力以赴,解决我们面临的问题,我坚信我们能够克服眼前的一切挑战实际上我们的经济正逐步好转,社会也正趋向稳定和改善,我们面前仍有许多问题,需要一个个加以解决 阮:其中最大的挑战是什么呢? 苏:在改革和民主化进程中,有许多事情我们必须要做,首先必须保持各地区政治稳定,确保社会治安,维持法律与秩序在遭受亚洲经2济危机沉重打击后,我们必须重振印尼经济,必须实行司法制度方面的改革,加强执法力度,以及其他必要的措施,使印尼的状况在未来 5年内得到改善 阮:您去年 11月在东盟峰会上曾说,贪污腐败
3、再不制止,整个国家都将被摧毁当时人人都谈腐败问题,反腐败是印尼在您领导下进行的一件大事,您是否已经开始采取行动,或者取得了什么成就吗? 苏:是的,在反腐运动中,本届政府做了大量工作,我本人也发布了总统令,下了不少具体指示,进行深入广泛的反腐斗争,这些指示都由与政府相关的反腐机构加以执行你也可能注意到了,不少官员因有贪污腐化嫌疑,正在接受审查我们还要继续反腐败,并积极避免腐败的出现,贪污腐败现象一旦发生,我们就要对其实行法律制裁因此我相信,坚定的决心加上具体的措施,我们一定能在范围和数量上都大大减少贪污腐败的现象 阮:东南亚一些国家有人说,贪污腐败是发展经济不可或缺的魔鬼,您认为这么说对吗? 苏
4、:这个问题应从广泛的角度来分析,尤其针对印尼的具体情况我们必须改善印尼的经济,必须增加国民收入,有了这些之后,我们才能调动更多资源,在各方面全面发展改善人民的福利待遇如果我们的经济效率不高,贪污腐败现象仍不断发生,那就势必影响国民经济的增长,人民的福利就难以改善 阮:让我们把话题转到中印尼关系问题,你曾访问过中国,您认为贵国和中国关系怎么样? 3苏:目前,印尼和中国的关系是很好的,但我看到还有更多的方面,两国可以共同合作我很感激胡锦涛主席,也很感激温家宝总理,他们也发表了同样看法,希望两国合作关系得到进一步加强,往更好的方面发展因此双方领导都承诺,要加强双方的广泛合作关系 阮:谈到跟中国的经济
5、合作,您希望在哪些领域吸引中国的投资呢? 苏:我认为,很多领域都可以投资但有一点我想跟你说,就是能源领域的前景确实不错,我们需要发展印尼的能源工业电力工业以及油气田工业迄今,中国已经在我们的电力等能源工业上做了不少投资,我们真诚希望中国继续投资,在这个领域里多发挥作用当然,贸易对印尼是非常重要的,我知道中国在寻找全球市场方面极具竞争力,但我也看到,印尼在中国可以找到市场,因此贸易也是双方能更好地合作的一个领域 阮:这么说,印尼准备向中国出口更多天然气和石油? 苏:我们的政策是,一方面我们要向国外出口天然气,另一方面,要用我们的天然气为国内服务我们要使两者保持平衡,我们要制定一套政策,使这两个目
6、的都能实现 阮:在去年底遭受海啸后,许多国家向印尼提供援助,运送救援物质美国是其中一个国家,当时报章说,印尼担心美国借口援助,对印尼加以控制或影响,您有此担心吗? 苏:实际并非如此我们非常感激国际社会,在我们最困难的时刻所给与的慷慨援助当时国际社会的援助来得非常及时,不但美国,还有许多别的国家,如中国和其他兄弟国家当然印尼自己4也调动一切资源,投入紧急救援工作,但国际社会的援助,包括军人救援工作人员救护队等组织,都无私地帮助了我们,使紧急救援工作得以加速进行回到你所提出的问题,我不认为除了人道主义援助活动外,还有别的什么目的,我能感受到包括美国在内的国际援助,都符合人道主义的原则,因此我的回答
7、是否定的,我相信人道主义援助在全球都可以行得通 阮:今后贵国外交政策的重点是什么? 苏:我们外交政策的重点,是保持和加强与东南亚及东盟的地区性合作伙伴关系因为这些地区必须稳定公平和繁荣印尼可借此改善国内形势,当然我还要维持跟其他伙伴的关系,如澳大利亚美国日本中国,还有欧洲以及非洲各国基本上,我们会较着重周边地区,特别是经济和地缘政治,现在世界正走向全球化,我们必须保持广泛的合作关系 阮:您在国内问题上会重点解决哪些问题? 苏:创造就业机会减少贫困改善经济反腐败建设好的政府保持社会稳定,包括解决亚齐省和巴波亚省的问题,优先考虑的问题很多,我将在这几年内努力进行解决 (Questioned byA
8、nthony Yuen) (Answered by Susilo Bambang yudhoyono) Q: Mr. President , today marks the sixth-month since you 5became the president of Indonesia . To lead this country with 240 million people and 350 ethnic groups , with economy being not good. Now after 6 months of presidency , how can you lead your
9、 country now ? A: I really understand that the challenge is great ahead of us . But of course I will do my best . My government will work really hard to solve the problems we are facing . But I believe very strongly that we will be able to overcome the problems . We will be able to face the challeng
10、es ahead . And actually our economy is improving now. The stability is also getting better and better. It means that there are many problems ahead to be overcome one by one. Q: what is your biggist challenge now? A: Yes. We have to conduct many things along with our reforms and the democratization p
11、rocess. We have to maintain our political stability, security, law and order across the regions . We have to rebuilt the Indonesian economy after it was hit by the crisis. We have to conduct justice sector reform,intensify our law inforcement, other things that are strongly needed to support the aim
12、 of achieving Indonesia for better future in the next five years. Q: Last November in a summit meeting you said : This 6country will be destroyed if we do not stop the corrosion of corruption . Everybody is talking about the corruption . Anti-corruption as the major issue under your presidency . Do
13、you already start your step or you have any achievement now ? A: Yes . my government has done a lot in intensifying the fight against corruption . I myself have issued the presidentian degree of how to combat corruption intensively and widely . And of course it is followed by concrete actions then b
14、y anti-corruption agency in this country. And you can see probably there are many officials that are strongly suspected to be committed to corruption .They are now under investigations. And we will continue this big challenge how to prevent corruption .And if corruption occurs, then we have to condu
15、ct a very strong law inforcement on him . So I believe that with this kind of measure , with this kind of spirit and concrete action , we will be able to reduce the scale and magnitude of the corruption. Q: In Southeast Asian countries people used to say that corruption is a necessary evil to keep t
16、he economy floating , do you think it is right ? A: I have to think in a wider compact , especially for Indonesia . We have to improve our economy , we have to 7increase our revenue. By having that , I could allocate more resources to develop in many sectors , I can improve the welfare of the people
17、 . If my economy is not efficient , if the corruption still occur again and again , then of course it will hinder the effort in improving the welfare of the people , in increasing our national economy. Q:Lets turn our focus to Indonesia-China relations. You have visited China before, what do you see
18、 the relation between your country and China now ? A: Well ,actually the existing relationship and cooperation is well. But I could see that there are a lot of things to be done collectively . So my spirit and thank to president Hu Jintao and premier Wen Jiabao that they also have been same view tha
19、t we have to improve our cooperation to be getting stronger , closer and better . Thats why both leaders are now fully committed to mutually strengthening and widening our bilateral cooperation . Q:Talking about the economic cooperation with China , what kind of business do you want to attract from
20、China to invest here ? A: I think a lot of business sectors , but one thing I would like to tell you is that the cooperation in energy sector 8is really well . We need to improve our energy industry, power, oil and gas industry , and China so far has invested a lot developing our power and other ene
21、rgy industries . We do hope that China continue to invest and do more in this sector . And of course trade is very important for Indonesia . I know that China is very competitive in terms of finding market world wide .But I could see also there are rooms for Indonesia to find market in China . So tr
22、ade is also one of the fields we can cooperate better. Q:So you plan to sell more natural gas and oil to China ? A: Actually our policy is , on the one hand , we have to export our gas to foreign countries ,on the other hand , we also have to utilize our gas for the domestic purpose . We have to hav
23、e it balance . I try to develop policy to meet those two objectives. Q: During the international relief operation in Tsunami disaster , Indonesian newspaper said that Indonesia is worried about the extension of the US aid program for fear of being used as the opportunity to get more influence on Ind
24、onesia .Do you worry about that? A: Actually it is not the case . We are very grateful for the international assistance and contribution to us in time of 9difficulties . The international donation and help were very timely at the time . Not only from the US , from many countries , from China , and o
25、ther brothers . Of course even Indonesia has mobilazed the potential resources at the time during the imergency relieve operation . But of course the impression of international community , the military , the relieve workers , the medical doctors , the units and other really helped us in acceletatin
26、g the process of imergency relieve operation . Back to your question , I do not see that there are other interest besides conducting huminatorian operation , I could feel actually whether the presence of the international organization including the US , are in line with the humanitarory operation or
27、 I have been other interest . The answer is no , and I believe that humanitary operation or I have been other interest . The answer is no , and I believe that humanitary operation can be set all over the world . Q: From now on what is your priority in terms of the foreign policy in Indonesia? A: Mai
28、ntaining and improving regional cooperation is my first priority Southeast Asia , in Aseanbecause these regions must be stable , just and prosperous , so that Indonesia can take those advantages for improving our domestic situation . 10And of course I have to maintain cooperation and friendship with
29、 other players , Australia for example, the US , Japan , China ,and also Europe , and countries in Africa , basically even we have to look more at our region , in a sense , probably in the perceptive of ( inaudible ) of course since the world has becoming one now , we have to maintain wider cooperat
30、ion. Q: What is your priority now in term of domestic issue ? A: Creating jobs , reducingpoverty , improving our economy , fighting corruption , building good government , maintaining stability including solving problem in Aceh and in Papua , a lot of priority but I have to do it some of the years later.
